Arena-style shooting?

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drakovyrn
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Arena-style shooting?

Post by drakovyrn » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:21 pm

So, I installed Celaria on my laptop last night, and I must say, I'm really impressed! I'm loving how fluid the parkour mechanics are, especially compared to another game I play, Red Eclipse.

But, speaking of Red Eclipse, I would love to see an arena style game mode be put in.

However, I don't want it to take away from the parkour aspect of the game. Red eclipse is an Arena-Style shooter first that has parkour mechanics implemented. It's parkour is very simple, basically limited to wall-running and sliding. Celaria was built from the ground up with parkour in mind, so this could make for a great base for other types of game modes!

So basically, I was thinking maybe more like an instagib sniper sort of thing. The game has potential to make large maps for traversing, and ideally could serve as a parkour-style arena for people to battle in.

The time-trial game mode would still be a big aspect of the game -- but going in, battling some people or friends worldwide or locally could be really cool.

As far as design, I was thinking that there would be a drawing and holster button, namely 'F' or 'Q'. When a weapon (I was thinking a sniper/pistol) is drawn, some movements would be limited, like frontal wall runs, and ledge grabbing (obviously because you have a gun in your hands), but things like horizontal wall runs, sliding, rolling, etc., would still be possible. In my head, I imagine doing a horizontal wall run and looking over to quickly snipe someone on a lower platform. Shooting would use LMB, and Zooming (with a rifle or sniper) would be the RMB, with scroll to switch between weapons.

Some melee combat could be implemented too. The characters already have claws on their hands and feet, so maybe you could implement some simple melee combat (claw swipe and leg kick?) that wouldn't hinder someone from moving regularly.

Also, a couple of more movements (namely, shimmying on ledges and dropping straight down from one) would be nice.

I would like to hear what you think, Lewa, and would be happy to help with any testing in particular. I really hope you consider this idea, as I feel this game has a lot of potential for multiple game modes. :)

EDIT: So, I played again, and I'm getting a real good feel for movements and things, but one thing I was wondering was whether or not a better system for walljumping between walls could be implemented? I can sort of do it with the current method, but it takes a lot of focus to aim at the opposite wall each time you jump off it. I was thinking that maybe instead whenever someone jumps facing against a wall, the camera would automatically rotate 180 degrees to face towards the other wall.

DOUBLE EDIT: Ignore that previous edit, stupid idea.
Last edited by drakovyrn on Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BlueCrescentMoon
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by BlueCrescentMoon » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:49 pm

Alright well, I'm just gonna address the small point you made at the end, because it personally affects me if this were to be put in. So, as nice as it would sound for the game to rotate you 180 when you jump from a wall, it would be impractical. Here's why. When I make my maps, I make them based purely around skill, this includes the skill to walljump a perfect 180. And, if this were to be put in it would ruin angled jumps and all jumps would have to be 180, which would limit maps a lot.This would hurt my ability to make maps and I'd have to find new, slightly more boring ways to travel around the map. So sorry to say but I feel like this would be a bust due to that simple detail.
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by drakovyrn » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:45 am

Hey BlueCrescentMoon,

Actually, it's funny you mention that. I've tried some of your maps (hard, but really fun and creative, especially that huge tower map. Good job!), and unfortunately, I'd have to agree. I forgot to come back and edit this, but in terms of gameplay and practicality, a 180 degree turn mechanism wouldn't work, and more times than not, would hinder having to aim the proper direction all the other times.

Still, what do you think about the other game aspects I've proposed? I know there are probably a lot of people that like the game as it is, and while I'd say I love parkour all by itself, I'm actually not fond of racing/time trials. I actually like your map, Mega City, because although there's a timer, it's not linear, and it doesn't make me feel compelled to finish as soon as possible. Plus, a semi-open map like that would double greatly as an arena-style skirmish map. Shooting doesn't have to be a main aspect of the game, I just think it would be nice to have that option, even if it was just a mod someone made.

Also, I know that this game was made with directX support, but I would really enjoy a Linux port...

If not, well, I guess that's why I keep a Windows computer around, lol.
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Dr Gains
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by Dr Gains » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:18 pm

Could see this as a server specific game mod. Doubt it will make it into the actual game, though. Especially since Lewa already has a ton on his todo list. Cool idea, though.
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drakovyrn
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by drakovyrn » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:19 am

Hell, at this point, I'd be willing to fund it in. Let's say, 100 dollars for the addition?
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by The Hard Croc » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:48 am

Well first off, welcome to the game/forums Drakovyrn! It's great to see the game growing :)
I think this idea sounds pretty cool, but I'm also a little wary that it might just not really fit with the game. However, the game's slated to release on Steam eventually (it got greenlit in 2 days!) and it'd be awesome to see some workshop support in terms of mods.
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by BlueCrescentMoon » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:58 pm

I'm sure there would be eventually, I bet people would be able to make different player models, game modes, new block types and whatnot simply based from the workshop, of course that would all depend upon how Lewa's final version of the game comes out.
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by Lewa » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:51 pm

First of, welcome to the forum! (You made it past the security-check. yay!)

Great to see that you like the general concept of the game. :)

However, there are a number of points that make your suggested expansion of the gameplay impractical or not possible.

1) The game engine wasn't really build to support that type of gameplay in the first place (on the client side.)
Making a good first person shooter requires good shooting mechanics, 3D bullet collision detection and low network latency and/or very good prediction algorithms for multiplayer to compensate that. (I can't just "pop in" some prebuild code to support that ingame.)

2) The game code is quite bloated and due to absence of true Object Oriented Programming it makes it quite hard to manage a huge codebase and make effective expansions without breaking anything on the way. (It has more to do with the way the game engine works.)

3) It makes a lot of sense to focus entirely on the parkour-mechanics. (Not only because it differentiates Celaria from other parkour games but also because even if i wanted, i wouldn't be able to implement a nearly as good fighting/shooting mechanic into the game compared to others.)
There are already tons of first person shooters out there (and some of them also tried to add parkour into the mix.)
As an example parkour fighting was already done by the recently released Mirror's Edge Catalyst.

Keeping it simple and focused on parkour is what i wanted to do.

That said, it could be done by some sort of server mod. But it would require implementing a lot of the game logic on the serverside (collision detection could be implemented on the server, but this opens up the problem of latency.) Additionally, it depends on if i'll be able to implement some sort of modding API on the client so that 3D models like bullets could be sent from the server to the client and then rendered on the client.
Can't say for sure how this is going to work out. I plan on releasing the complete source code of the server to the public. But i can't say to what degree people will be able to mod the game. (You could add server sided statistics or some moderator console commands but you wouldn't be able to affect the game-client without some sort of API.)
EDIT: So, I played again, and I'm getting a real good feel for movements and things, but one thing I was wondering was whether or not a better system for walljumping between walls could be implemented? I can sort of do it with the current method, but it takes a lot of focus to aim at the opposite wall each time you jump off it. I was thinking that maybe instead whenever someone jumps facing against a wall, the camera would automatically rotate 180 degrees to face towards the other wall.
I was actually considering this idea at some point (and i'm still having it in the back of my head at all times when i'm coding)
But as others have said, i don't really see a lot of use for it.
Maps aren't always designed in a straight line so you more often than not don't have to turn 180 degrees. Additionally it could lead to disorientation. (This would be the only action which changes the direction of the players camera without the influence of the mouse movement.)
There is also the argument that it could lower the skillcap (although this can be debated). Turning 180 degrees somewhat perfectly does require practice. And i actually wanted to create a parkour game which has an above average skill-requirement in which players have to practice to get good and do all the awesome parkour moves in the game efficiently.

So yeah, not planning to implement such a "turn 180 degree button" either.

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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by drakovyrn » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:45 am

Yeah, that's why I added another edit to the post, as I realized that a 180* turn would actually hinder some gameplay.

But that's what I was afraid to hear. I understand if it's a bit difficult to implement due to the limitations of the game engine. I was just particularly excited because of the great parkour system.

Unfortunately, Mirror's Edge: Catalyst isn't anywhere near what I'm looking for. In general, the parkour system is a bit shoe-horned, and it's quite obvious that it's not an arena shooter... Just curious, have any of y'all played any arena games, like Quake III, Sauerbraten, Red Eclipse, Warsow, Xonotic, etc.? I bring this up because there seems to be a bit of confusion as to why I think this would fit well. Obviously, that game wouldn't make much sense with a Call of Duty Deathmatch mode, but this game resembles all the "arena" style games very well, and many of them have their own parts of parkour. Sauerbraten has vast speed and timed jumping, Red Eclipse has wall running and sliding, and Warsow has wall kicking.

I can understand if the engine itself wouldn't work well with shooting, and I would even understand if it's not the direction you want to go in, but if you say it wouldn't fit with the game, I'd have to politely disagree, as many other games have already done similar (though not as thorough) implementations of this. :)

In any which case, I'll keep following the project. Hopefully, you'll reconsider in the future, or possibly in a second iteration. I wish you luck!
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Re: Arena-style shooting?

Post by Lewa » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:11 pm

Yeah, that's why I added another edit to the post, as I realized that a 180* turn would actually hinder some gameplay.
Yeah, i saw that. But i wanted to tell my current take on it in order to say "officially" yes/no to such a gamemode.
Unfortunately, Mirror's Edge: Catalyst isn't anywhere near what I'm looking for. In general, the parkour system is a bit shoe-horned, and it's quite obvious that it's not an arena shooter... Just curious, have any of y'all played any arena games, like Quake III, Sauerbraten, Red Eclipse, Warsow, Xonotic, etc.? I bring this up because there seems to be a bit of confusion as to why I think this would fit well. Obviously, that game wouldn't make much sense with a Call of Duty Deathmatch mode, but this game resembles all the "arena" style games very well, and many of them have their own parts of parkour. Sauerbraten has vast speed and timed jumping, Red Eclipse has wall running and sliding, and Warsow has wall kicking.
I've played similar games in the past. :)
It is entirely possible to cram such a shooter gamemode into this game.
But as i said, the gamecode it would require a lot of changes in the core game engine which would drag out the development even further. (It's just not feasible at the moment.) It's always nice to add even more features into the game to expand the target audience of a game or give players more stuff to do, but more features mean more development time and/or cost. (especially if a wanted feature requires you to rewrite a huge portion of the core gamecode.)

Something like that could be added in a potential sequel or made into an entirely own game.
But it's not going to happen with this project.

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