Some feedback and suggestions

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Lewa
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Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Lewa » Mon May 09, 2016 8:31 pm

What I am saying is there are maps now, and more to come where the platinum times too high, and could use a way to be adjusted. Heres some of the custom maps for an example:
All of your maps have a spot on time, have very little room for error. But what Im getting at, is people will keep getting platinum times and thats it. There isnt that struggle to get a better and better time until you reach platinum.
Ah, now i know what you mean. Yes, it's a problem if the map-author isn't able to achieve a somewhat competetive time.
At the moment, i don't know how to solve that problem. A possible solution would be to allow the map-authors to adjust the platin time once they validated the map, but this can also be compromised by creating maps with "impossible" platin-times.

Oh! I was going to mention this earlier but completely forgot. The folders you have in the roaming folder for celaria. You should make them 1 permanent folder in the future so that people wont have to redo all there times. But this might already be kind of resolved with an account system that you may have already rigged up.
I was always switching folders due to possible incompatibilities between those different version (otherwise it could lead to crashes if i change things like the savegames.)
I'll of course make a permanent folder for all future Celaria versions.

btw. I looked at your ranking system and just noticed that it works by only letting the top x-players have a rank.
The issue with that is that for the majority of players it will be impossible to "rank up" like that. (you seem to only allow one player to have the "legendary" status as an example.)
Another issue is that it also isn't 100% representative of the players skill. As an example: Once the server is up, the first player who makes the first run (which will be send to the server) will automatically recieve the "legendary status" because he will be Rank number 1 on the Leaderboards (due to being the first and only player on the server.)

I would implement it as follows:
Players start with no rank at all. And depending on the ladderpoints he recieves, he will simply "rank up".
So as an example, for 0-5.000 points you are unranked.
5000-10.000 is rank 1
10.000 - 20.000 is rank 2
etc...
Once the player gets to the final rank (which could be called Expert/Master, etc...) and he surpasses a certain limit of ladderpoints, he can then rank up again.
But this time his rank will be resetted to something like "beginner" while a second rank (we can call it "league" will be increased.)

So the progression could look like this (as an example.)

<no league>
  • Beginner
  • Intermediate
  • Adept
  • ...
  • Expert
alpha league
  • Beginner
  • Intermediate
  • Adept
  • ...
  • Expert
beta league
  • Beginner
  • Intermediate
  • Adept
  • ...
  • Expert
gamma league
  • Beginner
  • Intermediate
  • Adept
  • ...
  • Expert
etc... (there can be a whole bunch of leagues.)

This is a much more rewarding progression system in my opinion. (Because you can still compare your rank with others while going up in the ranking system.)
Players who like to be in the top 10 or top 20 list of the world, can still look up the global leaderboard ranks which will display such information.

Oh and btw... implemented your ladderpoint table into php. :P

Code: Select all

function getLadderpointRankingArray(){
	//first index: difficulty
	//second index: rank
	
	$array = array(
		array(100, 60, 40, 30, 25, 21, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  9,  8,  7,  6,  5,  4,  3,  2,  1), //very easy
		array(150,100, 80, 60, 50, 40, 35, 30, 25, 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  8,  7,  6,  5,  4), //easy
		array(200,150,125,100, 80, 60, 50, 40, 35, 30, 27, 24, 21, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  8,  6), //medium
		array(300,220,180,150,120,100, 80, 60, 50, 45, 40, 36, 32, 28, 24, 20, 17, 14, 12, 10), //hard
		array(400,300,240,200,160,130,100, 80, 60, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, 27, 24, 21, 18, 16, 15), //very hard
		array(500,400,350,300,250,200,160,125,100, 80, 70, 60, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, 25, 23, 20) //expert
	
	);
	return $array;
}

function getLadderpointMedalArray(){
	//first index: difficulty
	//second index: medal (0 = no medal, 4 = platin)

	$array = array(
		array(  5,  7, 10, 15, 20), //very easy
		array( 10, 15, 20, 25, 30), //easy
		array( 20, 25, 30, 40, 50), //medium
		array( 30, 40, 50, 60, 80), //hard
		array( 50, 60, 70, 80,100), //very hard
		array(100,120,140,160,200) //expert
	);
	
	return $array;
}
Mind if i ask you how you came up with those values?

/Edit:
I'm not so sure if the last difficulty level is really nessecary (the "X" difficulty... it seems kinda... pointless? As the difference between very hard and "x" isn't that big. Merging those difficultys into one would make more sense. Also then the "medium" difficulty level would be the middlepoint on the difficulty scala after that, which makes it a good reference point for voting.)

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Dr Gains
Posts: 85
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Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Dr Gains » Tue May 10, 2016 12:01 am

Lewa wrote:Ah, now i know what you mean. Yes, it's a problem if the map-author isn't able to achieve a somewhat competetive time.
At the moment, i don't know how to solve that problem. A possible solution would be to allow the map-authors to adjust the platin time once they validated the map, but this can also be compromised by creating maps with "impossible" platin-times.
I thought I seen a post from awhile back suggesting using best times inbetween checkpoints, that could work, but then I could see every map having to be flawlessed... Ontop of that, players could still have bad times inbetween if they have missed a major shortcut (look at TwoWays, where you can go straight up instead of running the course as intended). I honestly cant think of a real solution for this :/
Lewa wrote:I was always switching folders due to possible incompatibilities between those different version (otherwise it could lead to crashes if i change things like the savegames.)
I'll of course make a permanent folder for all future Celaria versions.
Oh good to hear. :) I know most of the other players wouldnt dig having to restart their progress.
Lewa wrote:btw. I looked at your ranking system and just noticed that it works by only letting the top x-players have a rank.
The issue with that is that for the majority of players it will be impossible to "rank up" like that. (you seem to only allow one player to have the "legendary" status as an example.)
Another issue is that it also isn't 100% representative of the players skill. As an example: Once the server is up, the first player who makes the first run (which will be send to the server) will automatically recieve the "legendary status" because he will be Rank number 1 on the Leaderboards (due to being the first and only player on the server.)
Well, there would be a ton of shuffleing for the top ranks when the game first brings in the ranks, but at the same time anyone can obtain the Legendary rank if they try for it. They'd just have to put in the time to get good, and also the time to beat enough maps. They wouldnt even have to complete every single map since a 1st place time holds so much weight. This ranking system is very similar to the Tempus server I play on for competitive rocket jumping on TF2.
Lewa wrote:I would implement it as follows:
Players start with no rank at all. And depending on the ladderpoints he recieves, he will simply "rank up".
So as an example, for 0-5.000 points you are unranked.
5000-10.000 is rank 1
10.000 - 20.000 is rank 2
etc...
Once the player gets to the final rank (which could be called Expert/Master, etc...) and he surpasses a certain limit of ladderpoints, he can then rank up again.
But this time his rank will be resetted to something like "beginner" while a second rank (we can call it "league" will be increased.)

So the progression could look like this (as an example.)

<no league>
Beginner
Intermediate
Adept
...
Expert

alpha league
Beginner
Intermediate
Adept
...
Expert

beta league
Beginner
Intermediate
Adept
...
Expert

gamma league
Beginner
Intermediate
Adept
...
Expert

etc... (there can be a whole bunch of leagues.)

This is a much more rewarding progression system in my honest opinion. (Because you can still compare your rank with others while going up in the ranking system.)
Players who like to be in the top 10 or top 20 list of the world, can still look up the global leaderboard ranks which will display such information.
I dont know if I can see it be more rewarding, I guess if you relate it to an online rpg with its level systems and having that constant gain it can feel rewarding and maybe keep you into the game. But it wouldnt have the same competitive nature for players trying to reach for the best. The way I see it tough; Ranks with titles, more competitive for the top players constantly trying to prove they are the best (or this good at the game), whereas a skill level/ league system might keep the new or low skilled players wanting to get better and better. And if we take a percentage look at this it might end up 15%(skilled) 85%(unskilled). Also if you go with the skill level/ league system, would you always be adding in a new league to accommodate for the new maps coming in, or would you adjust the required points as time goes on? The latter option would have players quitting for a month and coming back to see a drop from Gamma-Intermediate to Beta-Beginner.
Lewa wrote:Oh and btw... implemented your ladderpoint table into php.
CODE: SELECT ALL
function getLadderpointRankingArray(){
   //first index: difficulty
   //second index: rank
   
   $array = array(
      array(100, 60, 40, 30, 25, 21, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  9,  8,  7,  6,  5,  4,  3,  2,  1), //very easy
      array(150,100, 80, 60, 50, 40, 35, 30, 25, 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  8,  7,  6,  5,  4), //easy
      array(200,150,125,100, 80, 60, 50, 40, 35, 30, 27, 24, 21, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10,  8,  6), //medium
      array(300,220,180,150,120,100, 80, 60, 50, 45, 40, 36, 32, 28, 24, 20, 17, 14, 12, 10), //hard
      array(400,300,240,200,160,130,100, 80, 60, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, 27, 24, 21, 18, 16, 15), //very hard
      array(500,400,350,300,250,200,160,125,100, 80, 70, 60, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, 25, 23, 20) //expert
   
   );
   return $array;
}

function getLadderpointMedalArray(){
   //first index: difficulty
   //second index: medal (0 = no medal, 4 = platin)

   $array = array(
      array(  5,  7, 10, 15, 20), //very easy
      array( 10, 15, 20, 25, 30), //easy
      array( 20, 25, 30, 40, 50), //medium
      array( 30, 40, 50, 60, 80), //hard
      array( 50, 60, 70, 80,100), //very hard
      array(100,120,140,160,200) //expert
   );
   
   return $array;
}


Mind if i ask you how you came up with those values?

/Edit:
I'm not so sure if the last difficulty level is really nessecary (the "X" difficulty... it seems kinda... pointless? As the difference between very hard and "x" isn't that big. Merging those difficultys into one would make more sense. Also the "medium" difficulty level would be the middlepoint on the difficulty scala after that, which makes it a good reference point.)
Oh sick! These value are similar to the Tempus server I was talking about, the only real difference is there arnt any medals for Tempus, just completion. I think that there would still be a big difference in between VH and X, but at the same time I dont think this game will see an X difficulty for atleast a year. Im going to make a map later on of what I think VH would be, but I gotta finish another project Im working on first. If you want a reference for TF2 just of what Very Hard and Insane(actual name) Ill add these video links down below:
Very Hard Maps:
[+] Spoiler
https://youtu.be/P9gjR2kmaqA
https://youtu.be/nSZZdspS3oE
https://youtu.be/hKKqQ6IrcHs
Insane Maps:
[+] Spoiler
https://youtu.be/8451G88g5xk
https://youtu.be/HchO8_Ig6dc
https://youtu.be/vqo3eTYnMTY
Get involved in speedrunning Celaria and compete against friends and others at
https://www.speedrun.com/Celaria
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... fUJIZ4WITU
Last Update: Tuesday June 20, 2017.

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Lewa
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Posts: 157
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Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Lewa » Tue May 10, 2016 12:34 am

I dont know if I can see it be more rewarding, I guess if you relate it to an online rpg with its level systems and having that constant gain it can feel rewarding and maybe keep you into the game. But it wouldnt have the same competitive nature for players trying to reach for the best. The way I see it tough; Ranks with titles, more competitive for the top players constantly trying to prove they are the best (or this good at the game), whereas a skill level/ league system might keep the new or low skilled players wanting to get better and better. And if we take a percentage look at this it might end up 15%(skilled) 85%(unskilled). Also if you go with the skill level/ league system, would you always be adding in a new league to accommodate for the new maps coming in, or would you adjust the required points as time goes on? The latter option would have players quitting for a month and coming back to see a drop from Gamma-Intermediate to Beta-Beginner.
Yes, it is more of an experience / RPG system compared to yours. The problem i see with your system is that only a certain amount of players would be able to achieve any kind of rank. The bigger the playerbase grows, the less % of the amount of players will be able to achieve any kind of rank.
Additionally, players who started to play the game weeks after release will not be able to "catch up" to players which started to play the game eariler as there will be a huge gap between the ladderpoints of each players. (Given that the top-end players don't stop playing.)

The optimal solution would be to create 2 leaderboards. One with the experience-system (with the leagues which gives the player a sense of progression) and another which works in the exact same way as you mentioned. Depending on the preference you can concentrate on one of the leaderboards (or both.)

And yes, it would be possible to add new leagues as time goes on.
As an example, if we take the greek numerals we could create a pretty big leaguesystem:

Leagues: (in order of progression)
  • None (player isn't in a league)
  • Alpha
  • Beta
  • Gamma
  • Delta
  • Zeta
  • Theta
  • Sigma
  • Omega
Each of the leagues could have 10-20 different ranks in between.

And now imagine that the required points for each league increases exponentially. (so that the further you go, the more points you need for upgrading to the next rank/league. > could encourage trying to finish maps with platin as well as getting to the top 20 of each map for additional ladderpoints.)
It would take a loooong time to reach the 8th League. If that ever happens, i can add either additional leagues or let the player fight for their rank on the leaderboard system which you suggested.
Also, it can happen that someone looses ladderpoints and gets downranked. As an example if someone looses the (additional) ladderpoints due to getting downranked in the top 20 players on a map or if the votingsystem decides that a difficultyrating of a map has to be lowered (thus reducing the ladderpoints of each affected player.)
Oh sick! These value are similar to the Tempus server I was talking about, the only real difference is there arnt any medals for Tempus, just completion. I think that there would still be a big difference in between VH and X, but at the same time I dont think this game will see an X difficulty for atleast a year. Im going to make a map later on of what I think VH would be, but I gotta finish another project Im working on first. If you want a reference for TF2 just of what Very Hard and Insane(actual name) Ill add these video links down below:
It will be still possible to add additional difficulty levels for maps post-release. (Removing them is more tricky.)

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Dr Gains
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Location: Canada

Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Dr Gains » Tue May 10, 2016 12:54 am

Lewa wrote:Yes, it is more of an experience / RPG system compared to yours. The problem i see with your system is that only a certain amount of players would be able to achieve any kind of rank. The bigger the playerbase grows, the less % of the amount of players will be able to achieve any kind of rank.
Additionally, players who started to play the game weeks after release will not be able to "catch up" to players which started to play the game eariler as there will be a huge gap between the ladderpoints of each players. (Given that the top-end players don't stop playing.)

The optimal solution would be to create 2 leaderboards. One with the experience-system (with the leagues) and another which works in the exact same way as you mentioned. Depending on the preference you can concentrate on one of the leaderboards (or both.)

And yes, it would be possible to add new leagues as time goes on.
As an example, if we take the greek numerals we could create a pretty big leaguesystem:

Leagues: (in order of progression)
None (player isn't in a league)
Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
Zeta
Theta
Sigma
Omega

Each of the leagues could have 10-20 different ranks in between.

And now imagine that the required points for each league increases exponentially. (so that the further you go, the more points you need for upgrading to the next rank/league. > could encourage trying to finish maps with platin as well as getting to the top 20 of each map for additional ladderpoints.)
It would take a loooong time to reach the 8th League. If that ever happens, i can add either additional leagues or let the player fight for their rank on the leaderboard system which you suggested.
Also, it can happen that someone looses ladderpoints and gets downranked. As an example if someone looses the (additional) ladderpoints due to getting downranked in the top 20 players on a map or if the votingsystem decides that a difficultyrating of a map has to be lowered (thus reducing the ladderpoints of each affected player.)
Man it really sounds like youre onto something. Players will grind to get a high level first, then when ever that gets boring, theyd like start grinding for ranks. There will always be that constant rewarding feeling.
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Lewa
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Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Lewa » Tue May 10, 2016 1:19 am

Man it really sounds like youre onto something. Players will grind to get a high level first, then when ever that gets boring, theyd like start grinding for ranks. There will always be that constant rewarding feeling.
I hope so. :)
But i have to say that both system do have the time-investment factor which makes it hard for new players to outrank older players. (New players will have a hard time to catch up with the ladderpoints on both leaderboards.)
The difference is that my suggested league-system is for newcomers which want to "Rank up" in the leagues while your system is more like the end-game where top-end players with the most ladderpoints battle for the top ranks (on the top global leaderboard).

An ELO system (like CS:GO has as an example) would get rid of this time-investment issue (as it would be able to represent true skill more accurately rather than invested time), but the way the current game-concept works makes it nearly impossible to incorporate an true ELO ranking system. (You know... potential stuff for a sequel. :P )

We will see how it works out.

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Dr Gains
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Re: Some feedback and suggestions

Post by Dr Gains » Tue May 31, 2016 1:31 am

Added a bit of a league/level system to the doc. In Titles tab.
Also added an update log as I add stuff every now and then, mostly just new maps, and what I feel the difficulty is (completely subjective)
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