Something...BIG...

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BlueCrescentMoon
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Something...BIG...

Post by BlueCrescentMoon » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:17 am

Something...BIG is going to be coming here to the Celaria forums. :o

That's right, I'm working on a huge project now, and I'm dedicating time just to this one thing. You'll be able to use this for quite some time. Now you may ask, "What ever could it be the almighty and amazing BlueCrescentMoon?" 8-) Well I'll give you an answer, if you hadn't figured it out based on which subforum I've posted this in, it's a map. And a BIG one. It'll be mostly for exploration, but if you wish to challenge the map and it's length, feel free to go right ahead. :twisted:

This means I will be taking time off of my Osu! skin, "A Child's Dream" to work on this map, and this map only. I'll also be taking time from my art as well. So, if you have any offers for idea's :idea: to put into the map to hurry this along, feel free to send them too me. Of course, this could only lengthen the time till it's finished, or move it faster depending on how much I want to put in.

Technical Issues
[+] Spoiler
Now, considering this will be very very BIG, I'm gonna need to know if there is a cap poly count or a count of which the system can no longer handle and it becomes too much for it to uphold. This also presents the issue of, will I be able to upload it. You see my DropBox is filling up quite quickly with all the map's I've already submit here and some other community projects I work on, therefore it would beneficial to me (and you guys if you wish to keep me creating maps) if I were to be alerted of a secondary place to store these maps. I've got one place in mind but I'm not sure if it would work, that place would be Puush. Lemme know if you guys hear anything on anywhere else I can store the files.
UPDATE
Okay, so I worked on this a lot, I can't even find some of the hidden little things I hid myself, (That's how you know it's hidden. ;) ) this is only V1, I wanna add a lot more to this, so much more. In the mean time, have fun with V.1 of, MEGACITY

Download
[+] Spoiler
https://www.dropbox.com/s/31ow3x3fmxoyk ... .cmap?dl=0
Last edited by BlueCrescentMoon on Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Lewa
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Lewa » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:42 pm

Well, i'm very eager to see what you have in the works right now. :P

As to the technical aspects:
BlueCrescentMoon wrote: Technical Issues
[+] Spoiler
Now, considering this will be very very BIG, I'm gonna need to know if there is a cap poly count or a count of which the system can no longer handle and it becomes too much for it to uphold. This also presents the issue of, will I be able to upload it. You see my DropBox is filling up quite quickly with all the map's I've already submit here and some other community projects I work on, therefore it would beneficial to me (and you guys if you wish to keep me creating maps) if I were to be alerted of a secondary place to store these maps. I've got one place in mind but I'm not sure if it would work, that place would be Puush. Lemme know if you guys hear anything on anywhere else I can store the files.
While there isn't any "artificial limit" imposed by me in the game (i didn't limit the number of blocks just for the sake of it) there are still some limits either due to performance, the mapformat, etc...

So let's run down the possible limits:
  • Performance
    The more blocks you have in the scene, the more demanding the map will become for the CPU and the GPU.
    On the CPU the collission detection in particular can become more and more taxing as the number of blocks goes up. The game does already do some form of optimization to reduce the workload (first checking which blocks are in a predefined radius/bounding box and only checking collissions between the player and this reduced number of blocks) but the initial first collission pass does have to go through all blocks in the game and the workload of this first pass does scale linearly with the number of blocks in the scene.

    On the GPU there is the performance limit of the number of polygons in the scene. If your GPU can't handle that amount of polys, it will cause performance problems.
  • The mapformat
    The mapformat itself has a limit as to how many entities (this includes blocks, player spawnpoints, etc...) it can store.
    The current limit in the mapformat is 2^32 (= 4.294.967.296) entities.
  • The editor
    The editor also has another limit due to the technique which i use for selecting entities with the mouse. (the technique is called "color picking.")
    Basically, the game gives every individual entity an individial RGB color value which is rendered on an of-screen framebuffer. The game checks which color was rendered on the xy mouse coordinates and can (by looking up the entity ID in a color table) determine which entity was selected / clicked.
    This limits the number of simultaneous entities (in the editor) to 255^3 (= 16.581.375)
    I can raise this limit by switching to a different method (like proper raytracing) so that the editor doesn't limit itself to the RGB color range.
So while you can store more then 255^3 entities in a map, you will be limited by the color-picking method of the map editor.

Still, i never really tried to store more than 1 million blocks in a scene. (let alone 16 millions.) No idea how the collission detection and/or performance scales on such a high entity count.

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BlueCrescentMoon
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by BlueCrescentMoon » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:26 am

Murf, okay. Sounds like I'll end up being fine with this. It's gonna be big, but I'm trying to use as little blocks as possible, therefore, this shouldn't be too much of a problem for me. Thank the gods. ^w^" But, I've still got the problem of storage, unless somebody else is willing to upload the map to a Dropbox or something I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep posting here. :? Which is something I would like to keep doing for a long time. This game is really fun, I almost never run out of things to do, whether it be free play, beating my old scores, or making my own maps there's always something. :) ~u~
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Lewa
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Lewa » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:40 am

BlueCrescentMoon wrote:Murf, okay. Sounds like I'll end up being fine with this. It's gonna be big, but I'm trying to use as little blocks as possible, therefore, this shouldn't be too much of a problem for me. Thank the gods. ^w^" But, I've still got the problem of storage, unless somebody else is willing to upload the map to a Dropbox or something I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep posting here. :? Which is something I would like to keep doing for a long time. This game is really fun, I almost never run out of things to do, whether it be free play, beating my old scores, or making my own maps there's always something. :) ~u~
The 255^3 (~ 16 million) editor limit should be more than enough for very big maps. (Even maps with 1 million blocks would be amazingly huge.)

I'll do some tests (in the next few days) and try to spawn huge numbers of blocks in the editor to see how many of them i can place in the scene before running into issues (either performance wise or downright crashing.)

As to the storage: I'm working on a unified solution for mapsharing which (hopefully) will be available at the games release. There are still a lot of uncertainties which i have to sort out. (Mostly financial, legal and security wise.)
You can of course (in the meantime) create an own dropbox account and store those files there. (It's free :P )

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Dr Gains
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Dr Gains » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:38 am

Dropbox comes with 2GB of storage per account, my largest map so far is 32kB, you should have tons of available space for Celaria maps. I still have 500mB on my account that you are welcome to use, too.

As for the map, maybe include some vertical strats similar to the 'two ways' strats. And maybe some gimmicky hard gem runs. If you try to keep parts of the map low and compact be weary of how easy it is to corner jump to the roof and skip a bunch of the map.

Good luck, I know how much a large map can drain a person. :)

Also, 'knowtheropes' after 3rd cp can be laggy on some computers, maybe try to avoid lots of smaller blocks in a small area since it might ask for a lot on the gpu..
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Lewa
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Lewa » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:07 pm

Dr Gains wrote:Also, 'knowtheropes' after 3rd cp can be laggy on some computers, maybe try to avoid lots of smaller blocks in a small area since it might ask for a lot on the gpu..
The performance issues might arise due to the collission detection on the CPU and less from the GPU.
The whole map is one big combined mesh which is stored on the GPU. This makes sure that the CPU doesn't have to iterate through each block and send a "draw" command to the GPU. (Those are also known as "draw-calls".) The general idea is to reduce the number of draw-calls as much as possible to reduce CPU utilization and increase GPU utilization.
This is already optimized as all the blocks (except the purple checkpoints) only require one draw-call from the CPU.

However the collission detection still has to iterate through all blocks which are near the player. If you have lots of smaller blocks which are in a certain distance to the player, the game will iterate through them in order to check for possible collissions with the player. That's why you might see a performance dip if you stand in an area where a lot of (smaller) blocks are.

Mind if i ask you on what systems you encountered performance problems in that regard? (information about the CPU and GPU would be nice.)

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Dr Gains
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Dr Gains » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:22 pm

I will when I get home, currently 1,700km away right now.
Get involved in speedrunning Celaria and compete against friends and others at
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The Hard Croc
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by The Hard Croc » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:56 pm

Mad stoked on this idea! Love the idea of exploration maps in Celaria :) Hope everything works out
Check out my channel "The Hard Croc" for awesome Celaria content and more!

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Dr Gains
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by Dr Gains » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:05 pm

Lewa wrote:Mind if i ask you on what systems you encountered performance problems in that regard? (information about the CPU and GPU would be nice.)
Windows 10 - HP ENVY h8 desktop,
Intel Core i7-3770 CPU @3.40GHz, 3401 Mhz, 4 Cores, 8 Logical Pro,
AMD Radeon HD 7570, 10.0GB RAM,
64-bit Operating System, x64-based processor
Get involved in speedrunning Celaria and compete against friends and others at
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... fUJIZ4WITU
Last Update: Tuesday June 20, 2017.

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BlueCrescentMoon
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Re: Something...BIG...

Post by BlueCrescentMoon » Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Well that's definitely better than what I got, so if I can make it and run it, then you can too. cx
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